Episode Transcript – Through the Valley of Shadows (S02E12)

This is a transcript of our twelfth season two recap, available here.

Captain Pike [From Episode]: You believe in service, sacrifice, compassion. And love.

re:Discovery theme plays.

Ben: Hello and welcome to re:Discovery. The Star Trek recap podcast which promises not to show you a horrifying glimpse of your dark fate. I’m Science Officer Ben McKenzie and, as always, I’m joined by Captain Carla Donnelly. Greetings Captain.

Carla: I would never sacrifice myself for you like that Ben, just letting you know.

Ben: It’s good to know where I stand in this week’s episode “Through the Valley of Shadows” opens with Michael taking a call from Amanda, who’s dressed in full Princess Leia mode, and knows about Burnham senior from Spock. But before she can do more than ask the two of them look after each other it’s time to go. A new Red Burst has appeared this time over Boreth, the Klingon monastery where Tyler left his son. Michael realizes he’s hiding something and goes to him. He tells her about his son, and she comforts him. L’Rell arrives to negotiate Federation passage to the planet and she tells Pike and Tyler that, aside from the monastery, Boreth is also the source of the time crystals – another reason outsiders are not permitted to go there. Tyler insists he go but she forbids him saying the danger to the Empire is too great if either of them is discovered alive. Pike offers to go in his stead, but L’Rell warns him that no one can take a time Crystal without great sacrifice. Burnham meanwhile gets permission from a very assertive Saru to follow up a lead – a Section 31 ship has checked in 10 minutes past its scheduled time.

Ben: Saru orders Spock to go with her. On Boreth, Pike meets the timekeepers – the Klingons, who guard the crystals and tell him he’s come for nothing. But when he persists, they tell him those to whom the crystals are revealed leave broken. Reno arrives at lunch in the mess to tell Stamets they’ll soon be working on a time crystal. But Stamets is distracted by seeing Hugh reinstated in uniform hanging out with other crew members. He heads off to prep on his own. Tenavik the Klingons, showing Pike around the monastery reveals his Voq’s son, already grown thanks to the influence of the time crystals. WHAT! In their shuttle Michael and Spock debate whether she is the common denominator in the Red Signals when they arrive at the Section 31 ship, they run into its crew who’ve been left to die in space. They beam aboard the only survivor who turns out to be Gant, the tactical officer from the Shenzhou. He says he was investigating a suspicious subroutine when the computer took over and ejected everyone into space. But they’ll only be able to find out more by revisiting the ship. L’Rell and Tyler have a moment together. She tells him she understands that he is in love with Michael and that she has made her peace with Voq being dead and Tyler being someone else.

Carla: On Boreth, Tenavik takes Pike to the chamber where the time crystals grow and warns him that everyone meets their fate when they come into contact with them. Is he ready? Pike grabs one crystal and is transported to a disaster happening on a star ship. A group of cadets are in serious distress. Radiation is leaking at critical mass. In a truly upsetting sequence Pike witnesses his fate – to be severely disfigured in the accident. And just like when you wake up out of a dream to realize you’re still in it, Pike is then standing in a hallway when he sees something robotic coming towards him. He comes face to face with his future self. Horribly disfigured from radiation exposure unable to walk or talk. Pike screams and wails in distress. Tenavik asked him whether he accepts his destiny because to take a crystal is to… err, crystallize it. (both giggle)

Carla: Pike chants the reasons he is a Starfleet captain and agrees to take the crystal believing he has no other choice to save humanity. Tenavik nods in respect. On board the Section 31 ship fool-me-thrice Michael and Spock find out that, of course, Gant has been overtaken by Control. The Control ship takes off to destination unknown, leaving Michael in a struggle to the death with the Control nanobots. Spock saves her just in time by magnetising the floor. Spock convinces Michael that she is a threat to Control, which means there’s still a chance things can be saved. They hurry back to Discovery. Reno visits Hugh and gives him a gay to gay power chart. She reveals her wife died in the Klingon war and tries to give him perspective, albeit in the least persuasive tone possible. Michael and Spock make it back to Discovery just in time for 30 Section 31 ships to turn up. It’s showdown time. Michael convinces Pike the only way to destroy the sphere data is to destroy Discovery. Pike begins the self-destruct protocol.

Ben: Man.

Carla: Whoa.

Ben: Serious business. This is a pretty grim episode Carla.

Carla: Yeah dude. I cried a couple of times.

Ben: I mean I was fully into it though. This was a good one.

Carla: Yeah for sure.

Ben: You think so?

Carla: It really. Yeah. Its sucker punched you gave you a lot of, gave you a lot of meaningful thread wrapping up moments. That really winded me that whole Pike scene I was like “whoaaaaaa”.

Ben: You know I knew I knew it would be something I thought he might get a glimpse his future but not quite like that.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Like once when they started talking about “oh you know time crystals you have to pay some sort of price” I’m like “but we know his future. Is he going to see his futu-WHAT”? And then they made him choose it, I was like “Oh man”. Wow that was full on.

Carla: Well it wasn’t really a choice was it? It’s like I have to sacrifice myself or you know…

Ben: Yeah. It’s like everyone dies or I know my own future.

Carla: But also, he doesn’t know that he gets to go back to Talos IV.

Ben: No, he doesn’t know that.

Carla: So that’s kind of sweet as well. Bittersweet, I guess.

Ben: Yeah. He gets a better ending than he thinks he’s going to get.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: But that makes his sacrifice more meaningful.

Carla: Well and then also like he was sacrificing himself to help the kids. Like this is his deal. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, he’s the good guy. Yeah, he’s the good cowboy as you put it.

Carla: (laughs) Yeah.

Ben: Without all the shit bits.

Carla: No.

Ben: Yeah. No, I really liked that. But yeah it was it was rough.

Carla: Where do you want to begin?

Ben: Well look I think there’s I mean there’s a couple of main threads in this episode.

Carla: Sure.

Ben: I mean there’s Pike’s adventures on the planet, but also, we’ve got a few emotional wrap ups here. What you think about Michael and Spock finally teaming up on a mission like, have we not been waiting for this to happen properly? Because like when…

Carla: I’m so disengaged by this relationship I was like “Who cares”.

Ben: Oh really?

Carla: Yeah.

Carla: Because it always feels like it’s about them anyway, so it was a pivot I guess in the way that it was productive.

Ben: Yes, I guess that’s true.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Did you smell the trap? I mean was…

Carla: Of course. This is so stupid.

Ben: I mean as soon as soon as we met Gant and it was like “I know this guy” I’m like “He’s fucking got nanobots in him. What are you doing?”. And actually, there’s a bit where when Michael’s talking to him Spock’s like looking and I’m like “he’s suspicious”. But then I don’t think he was and I, and because he didn’t act at that point – because I thought he was going to pull a phaser on him or something and Michael was going to go” What are you doing”. He’s like “He could have been taken over by Control because he would have been logical about it”. But no, they’re fooled. And I’m like “Why do you not think this is a thing that could happen like you know that it’s taken over…”.

Carla: I literally said “fool me thrice” because it’s happened twice before.

Ben: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Carla: Right!

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: Seriously.

Ben: Holograms, then Leland, now Gant. You think he’s named after the chart?

Carla: No. Because it’s two Ts.

Ben: Oh yeah that’s true he’s only got one.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah that makes sense.

Carla: Good one, project management humour, thanks Ben. (laughs)

Ben: (laughs) Well we want to reach some audiences out there.

Carla: No, for me it was like, because look Michael’s whole arc is about controlling her emotions or being human or the intersection between the two.

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: Right.

Carla: So as soon as her nostrils flared when that Section 31 ship hadn’t checked in and I was like “Oh here we go”. Because she was, she was on a revenge mission.

Ben: Yeah, I did think that when Saru gave her the okay to go.

Carla: That was weird.

Ben: Well I kind of liked it in the sense that it’s like “oh yeah new Saru” but also, I was like “Is this not obviously a trap to anyone else?” like that don’t even mentioned the possibility. And all Spock says is “Saru sent me to make sure that you know you didn’t let your emotions get in the way”. I mean I’m…

Carla: Too late.

Ben: Lucky, yeah well lucky that he did go. Or you know Michael would be nanobot-isized. Is that the right word?

Carla: Sure. Actually, that was, I love that whole sequence so yes. The needle in the eye necessary to inject the nanobots. Why it has to go in the eye I don’t know?

Ben: Yeah well because it didn’t cause the whole thing. Leland wasn’t taken over until it jabbed him in the back of the neck.

Carla: Now I’m so sure it was in the eye.

Ben: But no because remember because after that he’s in the chair and they’re talking to him as a hologram and then they jab him in the neck.

Carla: Yeah but I think they just gave him more or something.

Ben: Okay but now we got to see a bit how they worked.

Carla: Yeah. That was cool.

Ben: And they’re like they’re just filling up his body and she like blows a hole in him with the phasers and now we know why phasers don’t work.

Carla: A whole T2 kind of deal.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah it was cool but also I like that we finally got a bit of Control’s motivation and it is that whole but it was it’s a I like it they added an extra layer of sophistication because it is like “I have to kill you all to save all life” but he’s more than that Control’s like “I want to turn myself into the ultimate form of conscious sentient life. And then I can destroy all other sentient life because then sentient life will be safe because it’ll just be me and I won’t kill myself, so it’ll be fine”.

Carla: The ultimate programmer’s response.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) Okay. Is there any are any other professional groups with whom we interact that can piss off this week? Hey actors…

Carla: I’m sure more.

Ben: You’re all dumb. Comedians, you suck. No, I don’t mean that. Yeah. No. I thought I liked that. I like that it was just that extra little nuance that I hadn’t picked up from what we’d already heard.

Carla: Yeah. No, I agree.

Ben: And now it makes sense to me why it wants the Sphere data because it’s making a distinction it’s not just that it’s searching to become sentient or conscious. It’s acknowledging that it is but it wants to be the ultimate version of that. And then it feels then it feels like “once I’ve done that then I can kill everyone else and sentient life will be safe forever”.

Carla: Yeah, I would really love to go to the series. That’s at, that’s at that 500-year mark with the obo-robo-octo.

Ben: Robo-octopus things. Yeah.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. That’s interesting because we don’t know when it happens in the future do, we? We know that it must have happened presumably by about 500 years in the future because that’s how old the probe is when it turns into the octopus. But we also don’t know, and it happens before 950 years in the future but we don’t. Apart from that we don’t know when it happens. I mean presumably relatively soon. I mean how long would Control really wants this data and wants to do it now. I mean presuming that means it can use it immediately to become the ultimate sentient being. So, no I don’t know. Yeah, I liked that though.

Carla: I did too. I’d love to really kind of horror style nanobots coming towards the her.

Ben: With the tentacle shapes and stuff.

Carla: Yeah that was really sweet.

Ben: Yeah. And then they got magnetized to the floor. That was that was a nice old school…

Carla: I agree.

Ben: There was a couple a couple of old school. I’ll talk. Actually, I’ll talk. I’ll save that for Short Chats. there’s a couple of old school references in this episode which I don’t know if there were deliberate but I liked them a lot.

Ben: Okay. Yeah. Shall we move on. So that’s Michael and Spock are we all good there?

Ben: Yeah. Let’s talk about Pike’s journey.

Carla: Wow.

Ben: What a full-on experience.

Carla: Yes.

Ben: I did actually. One thing I will say I was just talking about Saru and when they first go down to the planet to show what it’s like there outside the monastery there’s this great like shot matching where Saru’s like face becomes the face of the rock including like his very specific like mouth shape. I thought that was kind of awesome. I really dug that.

Carla: (laughs) I didn’t notice that.

Ben: Yeah. So, there’s this big rock face. It’s like someone’s carved very crudely Saru’s mouth and eyes but also it just looks awesome. Yeah, I really like that.

Carla: That’s great.

Ben: How was the outside of the monastery? But yeah, he goes down in his cool parka.

Carla: Oh my God what a babe.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah but he takes it off he’s just wearing his uniform underneath. I thought he’d be wearing cool arctic clothes.

Carla:  They just wanted to put him in a parka.

Ben: Yes. Yeah. And then he meets, he meets the blue Klingons, the one of whom looks a lot like the Ice King from Adventure Zone I thought.

Carla: Adventure Time?

Ben: Sorry not Adventure Zone, Adventure Time. Adventure Zone is a podcast. We don’t need to spruik that.

Carla: I think they have any blue people there?

Ben: No well actually one of them is an elf who’s blue. In the original storyline so you know. But yeah, I thought that was it was a little Lord of The Rings. What with their get ups.

Carla: Well look to be honest I feel like I’m not sure what I don’t. I don’t know if it’s me but I’m just sort of sure it’s happening with the Klingon, looks in this season they seem to get… they’re progressing in… they feel like they’re evolving because L’Rell looked really different this time.

Ben: Yeah. She didn’t have any hair this time around.

Carla: No and she was kind of blue like she was also kind of blue. Yeah. You know maybe they change colour in proximity to the time crystals?

Ben: I did like, I thought for a minute when we were on the planet that all the Klingons there were blue but there was like a reddish brown one as well so there’s still a bunch of different looks for Klingons.

Carla: Sure…

Ben: But they all seem to have no hair. And yeah, the Voq’s son all grown up, I didn’t see that coming.

Carla: Except for old mate Voq’s son, he’s got hair. He’s got he got the cool prog-rock Klingon hair.

Ben: He’s got his like crown on as well. Yeah cool metal crown. He’s the he should be on an album cover. Klingons are metal as fuck really.

Carla: Yeah fully.

Ben: Yeah and these guys are just like they’re more like fantasy metal or something. I’m sorry. If you’re a metal fan out there please send me the correct subgenre of metal. I’m aware that there’s 4000 of them and I’m not across them all but whichever one is like singing about unicorns and…

Carla: I swear to God they would be like some kind of Klingon, metal band.

Ben: There’s got to be surely, more than one.

Carla: Yeah of course. So whatever that genre is that would be the genre.

Ben: Yeah okay. Yeah. Yeah. Klingon rock? Is that a thing? I mean there’s Time Lord rock they call it “Trock”.

Carla: What?!

Ben: It’s like. You know like indie rock bands singing about Doctor Who and there’s Wizard Rock.

Carla: I don’t want to know this stuff.

Ben: Which is like you know indie rock bands singing about Harry Potter. That’s a whole thing.

Carla: Really?!

Ben: So, there’s got to be Klingon ones.

Carla: Okay.

Ben: Yeah. I want a Vulcan rock band.

Carla: No, they would never do that.

Ben: No. I guess they would be too emotional for them.

Carla: Yeah. I don’t even know what Vulcan music would be?

Ben: Very… I get the feeling like it would be like very precise.

Carla: Precise, like mathematical.

Ben: Like plucked strings that sort of thing.

Carla: Or just one you know like atonal.

Ben: Like that famous piece of music there’s like one note and then a rest that last 10 years and then another note. (both laugh) Yeah.

Carla: Yeah that’s perfect.

Ben: That would be very Vulcan.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Anyway, Pike meets the Ice King and the other monastery Klingons. And it goes on a quest. It’s very Dungeons Dragons. I kind of loved it.

Carla: Yeah, I did too. But again, it’s just kind of I don’t know like… There doesn’t seem to be enough, there’s not enough consistency in this season for me.

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: It’s like that. It’s kind of you know every director comes on to do their episode and they’re like “oh I’m just going to do this”. It’s like “come on guys”. Yeah.

Ben: Did you not plan this? Yeah, I did think it’s a it’s a it is a little weird I think that it’s suddenly revealed that the time crystal is not just a thing. It’s like the Klingons have a whole planet full of them. They just and they don’t let anyone touch them because they think it’s too difficult. So now I’m wondering whether those rumours that Section 31 heard about the Klingons, experimenting with time travel technology are not true. They just someone said that because they heard about “hey there’s time crystals on this planet” and they’re like “oh they must be doing time travel shit”.

Carla: No because L’Rell did say that they had experimented with it but it was too dangerous.

Ben: Yeah. But surely that wasn’t 20 years ago? That monastery has been there for a long time.

Carla: That’s true.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah but then again…

Carla: They may not have had the technology to combine with the time crystals until that point.

Ben: Well also I mean how long has it been there? We don’t know because time doesn’t flow normally there. It’s fucking Narnia on Boreth.

Carla: That’s right.

Ben: That’s what’s happening. There’s no wardrobe though. Just a bunch of cool glowing crystals.

Carla: Oh my God I cried in that sequence. It was so powerful.

Ben: It was full on. It reminded me and I guess I should have thought about this but it’s a little bit like the way Spock dies. Star Trek II.

Carla: Which I also cried in quite significantly.

Ben: Again, radiation business is also a little bit like how the Tenth Doctor dies in the end of time. He also gets some radiation.

Carla: I didn’t cry in that.

Ben: No, I didn’t cry. No that’s not true I did cry a little bit and then they strung out the end for another 15 minutes after he’s supposed to have died. I’m like why am I still anyway. A lot of people find that really emotional. So sorry, sorry. But yeah no it was, it was powerful. What did you think of the… we only got a quick glimpse but it was nice to see a recreation of what the future of Starfleet will look like through the lens of the Discovery design team?

Carla: Sure, I loved his fleet captain uniform.

Ben: It was kind of awesome wasn’t it?

Carla: Yeah it was really hot.

Ben: And the I liked how he found himself in that situation because I got the sense that he wasn’t just sort of observing it. He literally felt like he was there and he very quickly figured out what was going on and just acted the way he would act. And then cut to what seems, you know, it seems like a sinister figure coming down the corridor. And then he realizes it’s him. Like, whoa,  fuck me, just rough just rough.

Carla: So rough!

Ben: So, I’m swearing those episodes because I’m very emotional.

Carla: And one would assume that you can’t become Airiam-ized in the future because of radiation?

Ben: Well I think yeah, it’s that is a problem right because now they’ve established that they have these full body prostheses that can reconnect your brain to your motor functions. It makes this sort of 1960s idea of what that might look like i.e. you are in a chair and you can’t speak or move around kind of weird but I guess…

Carla: I guess it’s kind of like an iron lung type situation.

Ben: Yeah it is because it is keeping him alive.

Carla: Yeah it is. It is kinetically connected to his brain like he is moving it with his mind so that technology matches.

Ben: Oh yeah that’s true but they can’t.

Carla: But he can’t project… OK it doesn’t matter.

Ben: Yeah no but maybe it is it’s the radiation that means is his cells that are still there are too damaged or what have you.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: But yeah, it’s just yeah. Oh, and when he’s when he comes back from the vision though Carla like and they’re like “you have to choose like if you want this crystal you have to accept this is your fate now”. I’m like “what?!”. Yeah this is awful. Like not just you’ve seen it. Now that’s your price. But no, you have to choose. If you don’t take it you might avoid this future. But if you do that’s it. You’re like “Oh man!”

Carla: And now they’re not even going to use the time crystal.

Ben: What do you mean?

Carla: Well they’re going to blow up Discovery.

Ben: Well are they really? I don’t know. What do you think, do you think they will?

Carla: I don’t know.

Ben: It’s a bit dramatic. I mean it’s a drama show. So that makes sense. But.

Carla: Don’t know. We’ll see.

Ben: What about the scene with L’Rell and Tyler where she basically says “I’m letting you go, go off and live your life. I accept that you’re not the man that I loved anymore, you’re too changed now, you’re somebody else. But I see a little bit, I see enough of him in you that I respect you”. How did do you feel about that? You don’t really care?

Carla: I don’t really understand this storyline like I don’t understand why they had to put that scene in there. Because you know she he’s left he’s supposedly dead. The kids you know like but I don’t know I guess that was a nice bit of closure. You know.

Ben: It was nice to know what she thinks about it. And for him to have that moment of course because…

Carla: It makes him more of a choice rather than you know being victims of circumstance.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is nice because then we know we kind of have an expectation that you know she’s not going to show up and battle Michael for the right to be Tyler’s husband. Yeah. So, it’s not. Yeah. I thought that was nice.

Carla: I’m just clocking that as well. That’s clear that that’s back on. Right?

Ben: It is now. Yeah. Well or at least that it will be.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah yeah.

Carla: You got that vibe too?

Ben: Yeah. I think last…

Carla: She’s so tiny, she’s so tiny because he’s like a normal, well normal-ish size man for an Australian, about 6 foot 2. Yeah. But look when you see her next to him, she’s like almost like up to his belly button. Like she’s just so tiny. It’s crazy.

Ben: Yeah well look you know people overcome these problems every day.

Carla: No, I know I just. It just blows my mind when they had that hugging scene and it’s in profile you like wow yeah you forget how tiny Sonequa Martin-Green is because I guess she’s just such a big presence.

Ben: Yeah, she has a big presence. Yeah. And then and you know the main time when you see her and she is shorter she’s standing next to Saru who’s just taller than everybody, so it doesn’t really matter. But yeah. So, the other thing though from the episode the other thread was Stamets and Reno and that who situation.

Carla: What was all that about?

Ben: I liked when they had. Well as you know I love whenever the bigger crew get involved.

Carla: Oh of course the little scene.

Ben: Yeah, they’re doing their, what was it, autonym?

Yeah.

Ben: It’s auto antonym game.

Carla: Auto anonym yeah.

Ben: Yeah. And Linus our favourite lizard man who is like “oh stupid humans” I can play your game. And everyone was there including you know Lieutenant Nilsson. She was there. That was nice. But yeah then Reno’s like “he can’t concentrate because your boyfriend came back from the dead. Your husband who came back from the dead doesn’t want you anymore”.

Carla: Bit rude that she was like “oh I thought you’d be over that by now”. It’s like “come on mate”.

Ben: She’s a bit awful. She is like and to know and I think it makes even less sense that she’s that awful when we discover that suddenly she’s been through the same thing. Well she’s lost someone. I liked her wedding ring though.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: I was fucking cool.

Carla: Yeah. And that she still talks about her wife as if she’s alive. That was weird.

Ben: Yeah, I think. Well you know written that way for dramatic effect. So, then she could go… “she’s dead”. Oh no. And possibly not human. The way that she described her.

Carla: Yeah, I don’t know what that alien species is.

Ben: It was hard to know if it was an alien species or she’s just saying she’s from another planet, she’s a human who lives on another planet but then why would you say that? That’s like going oh yeah, my husband’s Italian. Like why would you.? Why would I say that? I wouldn’t say that. I would just yeah. Anyway. But it was it was nice, I guess. What do you, I mean they’re really taking that storyline real slow? It’s like here’s a little tiny bit here’s another little tiny bit. Here’s another really little tiny.

Carla: Every time she pops up, I’m like “Oh yeah”.

Ben: Really parcelling it out for you. Yeah. Yeah. And also, Reno’s like “Where the fuck are you? Not here. Like what are you doing?” and I guess it’s like “oh well you just know part of the adventure this week”. Well like surely, they can use an engineer every week. It’s just weird. Is just weird to cast Tig Notaro and then be like “can you come and do five minutes every four weeks?”

Carla: And also, like what it’s just so the gays can stick together? I’m like she hasn’t had any kind of storyline except t0o she’s almost like a “gay magical elf” like she has had to just she’s just existed to project to keep Stamets storyline…

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: Continuing.

Ben: I really hope that like she’s in the last couple of episodes and she does something amazing, some amazing technical jiggery-pokery with the time crystal because I’m just like you know she’s got all of that know how I want to see her use it.

Carla: Yeah for sure.

Ben: It would be great. So yeah, I hope that happens.

Carla: Okay.

Ben: Yeah like she gets the schematics and makes a new red Angel Suit for, that Michael pilots or something.

Carla: Oh, that would be awesome.

Ben: Yeah…

Carla: They don’t have a lot of time though right now because they’re just about to blow up the ship.

Ben: That’s true. And I like that he’s been very organized about “let’s get the hell out of here. Let’s evacuate everyone”. But he also, the look on his face like when in that moment when Michael says the only choice, we’ve got is to blow up the ship which is never the only choice. I mean come on people. But the way Pike looked it seemed to me he was like thinking “but I know that’s not my fate. I don’t die here. I know what my fate is now” and I thought he was going to say …

Carla: They’re not going to blow up the ship with everyone on it.

Ben: No but he is the captain he would presumably stay on board to make sure it blows up right.

Carla: No. Not if you’ve got enough time usually only captain goes down with the ship if they need someone to pilot it whilst everybody escapes.

Ben: Yes that’s true but you might need someone to do that because if you cannot eject or if the crew is all going to get into shuttle craft or escape pods and leave, although there might be enough shuttle craft to carry them all because as we’ve established there’s only about 140 people on board.

Carla: And they don’t do that anymore since the Titanic so.

Ben: Yeah that’s it. That’s right. That’s very important. But if they leave right. What’s to stop the Section 31 ships from just killing them all? I mean they don’t really care about the people but they also don’t want them to get away and warn the rest of Starfleet. And Section 31 is not that big it turns out they’ve only got 30 ships. I mean that’s still quite a lot I suppose and.

Carla: It’s a lot.

Ben: And they’re very high-tech ships with like cloaking devices and weird weapons and heaps of power and stuff so…

Carla: That’s a lot to keep under the radar.

Ben: Yeah it is. It is. Why have people not noticed this? Also, I again like Tyler is just serving on Discovery at this point and sure we know he’s secretly working for Section 31 but he’s just walking around like he’s a member of the crew. I’m like “it’s not very secret. Surely some Klingons, might find out about that and then be like oh he’s not dead” like it’s…

Carla: I was thinking about that as the crew manifest and stuff like that.

Ben: But yeah well, he probably wouldn’t be on the crew manifest, I guess.

Carla: Yeah, I don’t think the Klingons are really caring.

Ben: Now they’re not really talking to Starfleet unless you know someone summons L’Rell. Actually, that was the other scene when Pike is talking to them after he’s been to the planet and he’s saying like “it’s going to be all right your sons okay”. And he gives back the “Torch Bearer” insignia. That was, I liked that too. That was a nice moment. And now. Yeah. Now Tyler’s got it. Does that mean he’s the Torch Bearer? Is that how it works. Again, I don’t know. I mean they don’t really need a Torch Bearer now.

Carla: And like what if Michael and him have a baby. It’s going to be half Klingon.

Ben: Yeah, it’d be like B’Elanna Torres.

Carla: Cool.

Ben: Be turned out really awesome. One hopes before long.

Carla: I don’t have anything else.

Ben: Ok well shall we go to Short Chats?

Carla: I think we shall.

Ben: Now it’s time for re:Discovery Short Chats where we talk news, trivia and anything related to Discovery. And also, any questions you have for us follow our socials and get in touch. And captain we had some interesting theories people have come up with about what’s going to happen at the end of the season.

Carla: Yes, we did a shout out to you guys. We had a couple we had Jessie Scott – Hi Jessie. Just basically said “Borg vibes”. It’s a common theory going around right now.

Ben: I’m really not sure about that. I mean we did we kind of had that discussion we ended up cutting it from episode but yeah, we… I don’t think it’s a Borg thing.

Carla: Unlikely let’s say unlikely.

Ben: Yeah for sure.

Carla: And we had Jez, no Jen “Jazfic” on Twitter saying “I think they’re all going to be flung into the future to fight it out. Control will lose and all life will be saved but Discovery and the Section 31 ship will be stuck there. This is based on absolutely nothing I should add. Just wondering on what a good season cliff-hanger might be.”.

Ben: Yeah OK well that’s a pretty good idea.

Carla: I like that one. Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I like it. We were talking on a previous episode about where Zora comes from.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: And we were talking about whether it’s Airiam’s memories. You had a theory about that.

Carla: Oh well I just thought the part of Airiam memories could have contributed to Zeus quote unquote personality or development as an A.I.

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: But that leads into Richard Ingram’s letter.

Ben: All right. Yeah. Yes.

Carla: To us. Hi Richard. Who had the most amazing letter “I have had a suspicion for a while the events of the Short Trek Calypso might be a little peek into the resolution of this season, once time travel became a major plot point especially after “The Brightest Star” was a prequel to one of the storylines”. Yeah good mapping there.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

Carla: “Mostly it was Zora a statement that she was under instruction to wait at a specific point. And now after this episode I feel there is more to it as Zora said she was abandoned for nearly a thousand years and Gabriel Burnham was travelling from 950 years in the future. Since the timeline of this story has sentient life in the 23rd century is this the fixed timeline? Once the crew of Discovery deal with Control and the have they purposefully left Discovery to wait for Gabriel Burnham maybe with some tech onboard to bring her home?

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: Mind blown Richard.

Ben: I think that is genius Richard. It really does explain what she’s doing there. She’s waiting for someone and it’s not. What’s his name? It’s Gabriel Burnham. And yeah that makes total sense although we don’t find out where she is. It could be that she’s hanging out near Terralysium which we know is where Gabriel Burnham’s hideout was. So that’s hopefully where she got sucked back to when she got sucked back into the future because otherwise, she’s kind of screwed.

Carla: But it also doesn’t account for the development of Zora.

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: So, if she’s just been flung into the thousands into the universe then it’s just the Discovery ship it’s not… but I guess an A.I could develop over 50 years or something like that I’m not sure yet.

Ben: Well I mean I don’t think I think Discovery hasn’t time travelled, I think it’s just waiting 950 years out because an A.I can wait that long. But the main reason or the only reason that I don’t necessarily think that’s what’s going to happen is I feel like we would have to have more of a seed of where Zora comes from. And there’s such an “A.I’s are evil vibe” this this season from because the only one we’ve encountered is Control that I think that’s way too much of an ask to develop that in the last two episodes. You know so I love the idea and I kind of hope that is what happens.

Carla: Me too.

Ben: I suspect that there’s too much work to do to sell us on what and who Zora is. In the last two episodes because he can’t I mean he can’t assume everyone is saying the Short Treks. I mean you know you didn’t need to have seen The Brightest Star to follow the Saru episodes this season.

Carla: No but it’s certainly augmented it.

Ben: Yeah Richard, excellent excellent theory. I love it if you’ve called it maximum props to you. Yeah it is a cool idea. I like it a lot.

Carla: Yeah. And so, thinking about the other Short Treks it did make me remember that we haven’t seen Harry Mudd in this season.

Ben: I don’t think we’re going to.

Carla: No, I don’t think we will either, which is a shame.

Ben: Yeah it’s a shame because he’s great and maybe that’s why they did the Short Trek with him because they’re like “he doesn’t really fit into this storyline, so we’re not going to put him in there’s no room for like a standalone episode where he turns up. Unless I mean I guess he could be if one of the other Red Bursts takes them to where they’ve got to go and there’s I think three left. But there’s only two episodes left.

Carla: I think there’s two left.

Ben: Because this was number five of eight. Now actually this is a point I was a little confused about.

Carla: I thought it was 7?

Ben: Oh no you’re right, 7, 7, so there’s only 2 left. So that makes sense. But this that confused me because I was like “are these ones reappearing in the place where the seven all appeared at once.

Carla: This has been all of my confusion Ben.

Ben: So I think they’re going to have to make that clear because they’ve made it a mystery that nobody knows what the Red Bursts are about but they haven’t really clearly said you know that new ones are appearing in the same places because I get the impression they didn’t. Because otherwise they could just go and visit where the other ones were because they knew where they were.

Carla: But remember they were flashed but it was too fast for them to be like…

Ben: Oh, too far away for them to get you a precise location. Yeah. But I guess they. Yeah, I guess that’s true. So yeah maybe it is that they’re appearing in the same places where they originally appeared but that’s not been made clear to us so I think we’re obviously going to find out.

Carla: And that also brings in another time travelling entity into the conversation.

Ben: You know what though I think I think that’s going to be Michael.

Carla: What!

Ben: Yeah, I think Michael’s going to get in the equivalent of the Red Angel Suit because I think that’s why the brain scan. I don’t. I don’t know. They kind of the hand waved that away but I kind of feel like that would make sense.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: But I don’t know.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Well guess we’ll find out. We’ll find out. Now I do want to talk about I mentioned earlier in the episode that there were a couple of little nods to other things I thought in this story but I think they would just like coincidence, I don’t know if they’re on purpose but when Pike was standing in the corridor in his flashback and the motorized chair comes in the background I’m like “oh shit it’s Davros”. And I’m like “It’s not Davros, I know who it is” but it just felt so sinister because we’re used to seeing that image or at least I am in Doctor Who of like you know the horrible and when you think about it it’s very ablest visual signifying of evil. But it’s you know the twisted and evil wheelchair bound Nazi scientist and Pikes like the opposite of that. He’s like he’s a good guy but he’s in a bad way. So yeah, I thought that was an interesting little…

Carla: I think that was the name of his country album.

Ben: “He’s a good guy but in a bad way” (laughs).

Carla: (laughs) “Good guy in a bad way”.

Ben: That is a good name for an album.

Carla: Captain Pike.

Ben: I’d listen to it. I also thought it’s interesting because Starfleet Captains seem very keen to blow up their ships.

Carla: I remember I remember. Janeway came close.

Ben: Yeah, a few times.

Carla: A few times yeah.

Ben: While the original Enterprise got blown up. That’s why there was an Enterprise A. The Enterprise D, well not, well they almost self-destructed it at a few times and then they kind of crashed into the planet. The Enterprise E, Picard was going to blow it up to stop the Borg but he really didn’t want to. He’s like “No! No more” I love that scene it’s so good. Yeah so, I don’t know I think they blow up a lot of it. It’s kind of reminded me that scene in Galaxy Quest where people are like “why do you build a self-destruct system? What do you need that for? Why is that useful?”. And we know why it’s because aliens are always trying to use Starfleet ships against them. It’s against the people universe and we won’t be party to this but it. Yeah. I’m glad that he’s organizing an evacuation party. That’s good.

Carla: Well let’s see dot dot dot.

Ben: Oh, I did. You know what else I forgot to mention. We did see the return of Spock’s space butt in this episode, only briefly and it was in silhouette. You didn’t get a good look at it this episode.

Carla: This Section 31, I did write down a note to say the Section 31 EV suits were out of control.

Ben: Yeah. (laughs)

Carla: (laughs) Oh sorry. Fucken hell. They were very very sexy.

Ben: There are. They were very good.

Carla: I didn’t see. I have not even peeped. Scott. Scott. Blah. Have not even Spock’s butt. But yeah, I don’t know what’s happening to me I’ve missed it. I’ve got to start paying attention.

Ben: You’ve got to get on board.

Carla: I know!

Ben: It’s good, it’s good business.

Carla: Yeah. Okay great.

Ben: Also, I’m excited because right at the end Pike says contact the XO on the Enterprise. Does that mean we’re going to see Number One next episode? That would be great.

Carla: That’s a good… Yeah. That’s great!

Ben: I hope she comes back; she was cool. I think Rebecca Romijn did a great really great job of playing her.

Carla: But back on Spock’s wardrobe, so like “hipster Spock”.

Ben: Yeah.

Carla: I am very kind of disturbed his like low, what are they called Ben?

Ben: Low neckline?

Carla: Yeah. No, it’s not. It’s not a “deep V”. It’s just liked a low neckline.

Ben: (laughs) That’s something else.

Carla: (laughs) In the t-shirts Ben!

Ben: Yeah, I know what you mean. I was distracted this episode by his beard because I don’t know if I don’t know if it’s changed but it’s really pointy on his cheeks. Oh, it’s like got two triangles like coming up on his cheeks.

Carla: “Eyes up here Ben. That’s what it’s saying”.

Ben: I know I stopped looking at my beard. My eyes are up here.

Carla: It’s more like the butt, the butt “my eyes are up here”.

Ben: Yeah. Sorry. Sorry Spock I’m distracted by your beard and your butt. You’re just very pretty.

Carla: He is very extremely pretty.

Ben: Yeah. I mean everyone else is pretty good as well.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: There’s only two episodes left Carla.

Carla: I know!

Ben: Does it feel like two episodes is enough?

Carla: I don’t know so much happened in this episode.

Ben: We did progress a lot.

Carla: I mean I can’t even conceptualize how much can happen in two episodes.

Ben: Actually, this is one of the things worth touching on in Short Chats. We have heard through the rumour mill that big changes are afoot at the end of the season. We don’t know anything more than that.

Carla: What!?

Ben: Not that something’s going to happen. We don’t know. We’ve heard that Spock, as you’ve said Pike and Spock are definitely leaving. So…

Carla: I wouldn’t be surprised if Michael goes either.

Ben: Michael goes?!

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: Who’s the main character of the show?

Carla: Don’t no.

Ben: Tilly? She’s barely in this episode.

Carla: I haven’t seen Tilly in ages.

Ben: She did like she was at the lunch but she didn’t say much. Yeah, I don’t know. She’s maybe she’s got more to do next episode but I don’t think we’ve got time for Bryce and Reese to team up.

Carla: Not yet.

Ben: That’s a shame. Next season.

Carla: Next season. We have the new show runner coming on board so hopefully she’s going to put in a lesbian captain and I would just basically – you can just chuck me into the grave after that. I’ll be done. I’ll be cooked.

Ben: Everything’s cool.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: What if what if what if they go to Vulcan and they get a lesbian Vulcan?

Carla: Nooo don’t Ben! Don’t, I can’t. That’s not ever a possibility.

Carla: Okay.

Carla: Yeah.

Ben: All right. Okay. I just thought, I just know you like Vulcans. I was just trying to. Just got to, “how we make it even better?”.

Carla: Nothing could be that good, life could never be that good.

Ben: Yeah. And on that note.

Ben: You’ve been listening to re:Discovery. You’ll find links to all the creatives involved on our web site rediscoverypodcast.com. We’d love to connect with you. Find us on Twitter and Facebook @rediscoverypod.

Splendid Chaps: re:Discovery is brought to you by Splendid Chaps Productions. Find more entertainment for your ears at splendidchaps.com.

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